Star Wars

This is a general discussion thread for the thing we love so much-Star Wars. All discussion of it should go here.

Since we changed the emoticon codes, I updated your post to make it display properly.

FBTB Admin dWhisper wrote:You see this evil empire, but the only thing that ever shows them as evil (and it certainly was a pretty big evil) was the destruction of Alderran. Otherwise, what did they really do? You only have people telling you they hate the empire, and never explaining why. You see a large military force, and some pretty messed up leadership structures, but that's it. It seems like outside the Rebels constantly attacking, was a relatively ordered place.

But it could be argued that the oppression of the Empire is implied through the grandeur of its military. Even if the land over which you reign spans an entire galaxy, building mile-long warships and a battlestation the size of a small moon suggests that resources are grossly misallocated. Wouldn't it be possible that Sienar is cranking out TIEs at the speed of light while thousands of systems starve?

The same could perhaps be said for the Alliance. The grandeur of the Mon Calamari luxury liners-turned-warships might suggest that the inhabitants of Dac lived a more prosperous and enjoyable life prior to the rise of the Empire. What do you think?

Fallenangel wrote:
But it could be argued that the oppression of the Empire is implied through the grandeur of its military. Even if the land over which you reign spans an entire galaxy, building mile-long warships and a battlestation the size of a small moon suggests that resources are grossly misallocated. Wouldn't it be possible that Sienar is cranking out TIEs at the speed of light while thousands of systems starve?

Though with a good portion of the known galaxy at its disposal, the Empire could easily draw resources from uninhabited systems, while creating jobs (albeit low-paying jobs most likely with bad living and working conditions) for sentients (primarily humans, of course, given the Empire's xenophobia) from smaller systems.

Though of course, what's shown in the OT is shown entirely for the purposes of telling the story. We don't need to know how the Empire is fed or where it gets its metals from.

And remember, it's not meant to be realistic:

Fallenangel wrote:But it could be argued that the oppression of the Empire is implied through the grandeur of its military. Even if the land over which you reign spans an entire galaxy, building mile-long warships and a battlestation the size of a small moon suggests that resources are grossly misallocated. Wouldn't it be possible that Sienar is cranking out TIEs at the speed of light while thousands of systems starve?

Not so. The large Imperial military is a relic of the Republic from the clone wars. The upper leadership of the Empire may be corrupt but the majority of the officers will be fail and just ex Republic officers. Also we have no proof that anywhere is poor in the Empire as all OT planets are backwards and out of the way, we never see wealthy planets like The Naboo or Galactic City for more than a few seconds.

Triangle Man wrote:
Not so. The large Imperial military is a relic of the Republic from the clone wars. The upper leadership of the Empire may be corrupt but the majority of the officers will be fail and just ex Republic officers. Also we have no proof that anywhere is poor in the Empire as all OT planets are backwards and out of the way, we never see wealthy planets like The Naboo or Galactic City for more than a few seconds.

The large army academies like Carida didn't ever stop producing men. The Empire continued to recruit soldiers, officers, pilots, etc., and probably in greater numbers than the Republic, who relied heavily on the clones. Quite a few officers began their careers and rose through the ranks during the reign of the Empire, including notable men such as Firmus Piett, Maximilian Veers, and Soontir Fel.

Blokdoctor wrote:
The large army academies like Carida didn't ever stop producing men. The Empire continued to recruit soldiers, officers, pilots, etc., and probably in greater numbers than the Republic, who relied heavily on the clones. Quite a few officers began their careers and rose through the ranks during the reign of the Empire, including notable men such as Firmus Piett, Maximilian Veers, and Soontir Fel.

I agree that the Empire was a lot mor militristic than Republic, however the presance of a large military isan't realy a show of 'Evilness' as such, more like power, remeber the Empire was born form the fire and therefor will live in the flames, to prevent another Clone wars like split in the Empire.

Triangle Man wrote:
I agree that the Empire was a lot mor militristic than Republic, however the presance of a large military isan't realy a show of 'Evilness' as such, more like power, remeber the Empire was born form the fire and therefor will live in the flames, to prevent another Clone wars like split in the Empire.

Actually, my point there was that the majority of the Imperial Armed Forces probably were not ex-Republic soldiers.

Blokdoctor wrote:
Actually, my point there was that the majority of the Imperial Armed Forces probably were not ex-Republic soldiers.

Ah I see. So it could be that the Empire attracted more ruthless top brass like Veers than the Republic did, however it did still have other officers like Yuralin.

Triangle Man wrote:
Ah I see. So it could be that the Empire attracted more ruthless top brass like Veers than the Republic did, however it did still have other officers like Yuralin.

You do also have to remember, though, that officers like Yularin who were ex-Republic were mostly the older men who sat in offices and discussed military actions, without doing much of the fighting, so the Empire would have to recruit lots of their own men. The Imperial military was probably not a relic of the Clone Wars. It was larger and more technologically advanced.

Blokdoctor wrote: You do also have to remember, though, that officers like Yularin who were ex-Republic were mostly the older men who sat in offices and discussed military actions, without doing much of the fighting, so the Empire would have to recruit lots of their own men. The Imperial military was probably not a relic of the Clone Wars. It was larger and more technologically advanced.

Furthermore, The Empire adopted a government run by fear rather than the more democratic process of the Old Republic*, something that is reflected in the fact that Imperial military craft like the AT-AT and the TIE/ln, while not as efficient or practical as their predecessors, were effective tools of intimidation.

*Forget the Ruusan Reformation.

Fallenangel wrote:
Furthermore, The Empire adopted a government run by fear rather than the more democratic process of the Old Republic*, something that is reflected in the fact that Imperial military craft like the AT-AT and the TIE/ln, while not as efficient or practical as their predecessors, were effective tools of intimidation.

*Forget the Ruusan Reformation.

Not really. I think the TIE/ln was an effective starfighter - certainly just as effective as the Alpha-3.

Blokdoctor wrote: Not really. I think the TIE/ln was an effective starfighter - certainly just as effective as the Alpha-3.

So my entire point is wrong?

Maybe "effective" isn't the best word - I was thinking of the fact that the Empire relied on a very basic 'cookie-cutter' design, lacking shields or a hyperdrive (though I suppose the Alpha-3 performs only slightly better in this aspect). As for the AT-AT, typical land vehicles are very low to the ground for stability... and to protect vulnerable undersides.

Fallenangel wrote:
So my entire point is wrong?

Sorry. Forgot to delete the rest of the quote.

Personally, I think the TIE/ln is just as good if not better than the Alpha-3, and if you bring the TIE/in into the discussion, the primary TIE starfighters of the Galactic Civil War are better than their Clone Wars predecessors. As for the Alpha-3's with shields and hyperdrives, I'm fairly certain those were specialized versions, so it wouldn't be fair to compare them to the standard TIE/ln. If you compare them to TIEs built to include shields and hyperdrives, such as the TIE x1, then I think the TIE version comes out on top again.

Fallenangel wrote:
Furthermore, The Empire adopted a government run by fear rather than the more democratic process of the Old Republic.

They are evidence of a intimidating military, there is no evidence in the saga for the military brass controlling the Empire, there is still an Imperial Senate, then it was replaced by the Governors of systems, not military leaders. Tarkin does say that fear will keep the local systems in check, but this is more likely to refer to this fear stopping them join the rebellion, the atchual military would be unsuitable to run a planet.

It appears that my conception of the Star Wars universe is somewhat flawed... But it's still an interesting discussion.

Blokdoctor wrote:
Personally, I think the TIE/ln is just as good if not better than the Alpha-3, and if you bring the TIE/in into the discussion, the primary TIE starfighters of the Galactic Civil War are better than their Clone Wars predecessors. As for the Alpha-3's with shields and hyperdrives, I'm fairly certain those were specialized versions, so it wouldn't be fair to compare them to the standard TIE/ln. If you compare them to TIEs built to include shields and hyperdrives, such as the TIE x1, then I think the TIE version comes out on top again.

I suppose so. My initial focus was on the fact that while Imperial craft may have been of a less effective nature (though, as you have mentioned, they are obviously not) their primary purpose (in the story) is to be symbols of Imperial power and use that fear to keep the systems in line.

Triangle Man wrote:
They are evidence of a intimidating military, there is no evidence in the saga for the military brass controlling the Empire, there is still an Imperial Senate, then it was replaced by the Governors of systems, not military leaders. Tarkin does say that fear will keep the local systems in check, but this is more likely to refer to this fear stopping them join the rebellion, the atchual military would be unsuitable to run a planet.

I guess what I mean is not so much the military controlling the ruling body but rather a government which stresses the use of military to maintain order (in the fashion of the German National Socialists with which the Galactic Empire shares parallels). But seeing as the individual governments of most systems were left alone, as you said, I would agree that this increased "nationalism" was more to prevent heresy than anything else.

Fallenangel wrote:
My initial focus was on the fact that while Imperial craft may have been of a less effective nature (though, as you have mentioned, they are obviously not) their primry purpose (in the story) is to be symbols of Imperial power and use that fear to keep the systems in line.

Funny, I thought exactly the opposite. In the movies, these craft all fight. There is no mention of intimidation. The TIE/lns, TIE/ins, and TIE x1s engage in dogfights, the Star Destroyers capture (or attempt to capture) or fire upon enemy ships (or both). The Death Stars destroy big things. And the AT-ATs and AT-STs attack enemy ground units. The intimidation factor mostly appears in the EU. For the most part, masses of Imperial units (Blizzard Force, the Endor Sector Fleet, both Death Stars, the 501st Legion) are attacked by Rebel forces, who don't retreat. (unless you count the Battle of Hoth, but in that case, they'd already decided to retreat before seeing the AT-ATs) Any time the Rebels mention retreating because of Imperial units (such as Ackbar's call for retreat during the Battle of Endor), it's a sensible decision. (the cruisers really can't repel the Death Star's superlaser, no matter how intimidating it might be)

Is they any way to mesh the battle of Coruscant in with the Battle of Endor? This is in terms of the number of capital ships and the firing ranges and the combat distances. It would seem that Endor was a much smaller battle than Coruscant but they was a lot more at stake in Endor.